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Here's page Two of our viewer comments on the Netcode Rebuttal article.
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Tuesday, July 04, 2000 3:00 PM
I write this message for the mailbag concerning the new netcode:
Just a little word if you put:
in your autoexec.cfg of your cstrike directory you will experience
much less of the bad side of the new netcode. And if all the CS
servers would turn off lag compensation (as some do) you would
have a part of the old CS back. For the aiming in CS just wait
until the next beta gooseman will have time to fixed it, he was
rushed by the 184.108.40.206 patch as every mod out there. Hang in there,
there is hope. [MTL]Bookaroo (mtl.altajeux.com)
|From: "Agent Orange"
Subject: Re: Editor's Note on the HL Netcode Rebuttal
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:33:10 -0400
I always play terrorist, so I can't speak for the AUG,
but when test firing the sig, even at considerable distance, shot
#1 always falls within the center circle of the crosshair (that
is, an imaginary circle that would touch the 4 center points of
the crosshair), as long as you are crouching and not moving. Standing
degrades accuracy, as does moving, of course, but still not to a
great degree. I'm VERY impressed with the changes made to the P90,
since it now more accurately reflects the real weapon. (Or at least
my gun aficianado friends' descriptions of it). A three round burst
to the head at moderate distance is far easier now, due to the increased
accuracy. As far as skilled players dropping the game, any time
there's the slightest change, you always get people who drop out
because it's not what they are used to. Look at all the people whining
because Q3 isn't QW. They have to change their playstyle slightly,
so instead they bitch. I see 6.5 as a vast improvement. Then there's
the netcode. I don't understand people's complaints. I really have
suffered no ill effects. If anything, the game runs smoother. The
only thing I can think of is that something's buggered on either
the server they're playing on, or on their client. I'll admit, things
ran a whole hell of a lot better when I did a fresh install of HL,
ran the update that jumps the CD ver directly up to 1.1.whatever,
and then did a clean install of 6.5. Without doing it that way,
HL decided it didn't like openGL. Yeah, 6.5/6.6 isn't perfect, but
it's a big step up. Now if only they'd balance the escape maps a
little better. -A/O
I like not having to lead my shots at all. And the fact
that all those HPBs have a better chance. There has been no loss
in gameplay, so there is nothing not to like. If i get killed after
i duck behind a wall i dont mind, because i know that my ass was
grass anyways, wether i was registered before or not. And i remember
what it was like to be a HPB, about 4 months ago. I dont expect
everyone to be able too, or to feel the need to pay 45 dollars a
month to enjoy a game that should be close to free, like CS. And
im 100 percent sure, if HL had this netcode, then went to previous
netcode, there would be 1000 percent more whiners then there are
now. And too all my fellow LPB out there who are arrogent and who
say HPB are a bunch of POOR, dumbass, AOLers, may they die and rot
in hell. Im almost ashamed to be a LPB. They, the ones who have
almost every adavantage, should be the last to complain. But no.
The HPB take it and they do there best with what they have, and
they rarely complain. All the power to em.
Thursday, July 06, 2000 4:28 AM
Ok I'm not going to argue the rights and wrongs of who
should have the best game at what connection. Nor am I going to
stand behind the initial netcode article fully as I agree that there
are certain inaccuracies, but wish to debate certain areas raised
in the rebuttal with experience as far as possible. The first point
is that as mentioned with the red dot feedback, the old game we
had to do our own prediction, and although the HPB's margin of error
was smaller, the lpb and the hpb both predicted their own lead at
their end themselves, packet loss permitting. Now the game is taking
charge of the prediction for all to a point, and something is obviously
terribly wrong to create such a global backlash across different
HL mods, of which TFC is my specialism.
Myself I am dedicated to my clan and its betterment within the game.
Having something I can deal with in my head, (whatever I connect
with) traded for essentially something out of my control is taking
away part of what made up a tight playable game of people, and replacing
it with a slightly inaccurate server lottery (packet loss being
something no one can control with netcode, just allow for) is quite
hard to accept. Make it fairer fine, but not by introducing inaccuracies
in an already established product and then shipping with no readmes
that its in fact a cvar collection of choice, but enabled by default,
and installed around the world on release day before anyone realises.
"This used to mean that by the time your packet got to the server
a moving target would no longer be where you were aiming, thus you
registered a miss"
This seems to be at odds with his prior statement of allowing for
the dot lag, sure its true if this was your first day playing the
game with no faq's however as he said, we all used to lead to allow
for the lag, based on the feedback received to our terminal and
is how the game was accepted to that point, with faster connections
giving a few tenths of a second better response if you were that
serious about gaming. He goes on to make a non technical statement
of 'latency tracking' ( the method of this is actually what's in
question) and further sets an explanation in the next para. that
we must hit real positions and no distinction being made. Well we
can only hit positions that we are received as data, if that's wrong
data because the netcode has made up something as the persons isp
has dropped a few packets or simply a server error, then we react,
sometimes only briefly, but react to something that is false - instead
of before, having no- event since their model isn't updated till
the data gets back thru to us. Not perfect but when its clear -
a kill is really a kill - both parties receiving true data to lead,
or no data at all.
Packet loss is unavoidable, but if it happened, its wasn't the cue
for all these strange server calculated effects of distance infections
and bendy bullets, both of which I've experienced time and time
again post 1100. No netcode can cure packet loss, just make a guess,
and it seems some guesses just aren't good enough. I prefer to guess
the lead myself. There then is a lengthy debate about how the server
might do it, and what some scenarios are.
I will add as experience what happened in clan practice where one
of our known mid to hpb was playing sniper and I was playing soldier,
me having just got cable access 2 days before the 1100 patch. We
came face to face on level ground, mid to melee distance. He was
shouldered and took his shot, it seemed to miss me. As soldier I
know it takes 2 RPG shots to kill a sniper, and rpg shots bounce
people, so wait a sec to hit the ground before firing shot 2. I
fired, he bounced a little, I fired again, he died. Now I will forever
argue whether it was 2 or 3 seconds that I was walking away after
turning from the body but it was NO LESS than 2 seconds. Arrrggggg..
Dead. Maybe it was someone else - nope the death message was him
alright - and he's a clan bud, we play together a lot. He confirmed
the strange scene - he did die too yet was awarded a kill as I was.
I don't care who the! netcode favours, lpb or hpb, that isn't right.
In addition, tests 1 on 1 feedback testing with another clanmate
has shown inconsistencies in short range rpg hits vs. hwg - I think
I hit his feet on shot 1 3 and 4 since I see him bleed, bounce,
ouch etc and he says e.g. oh no, you missed 3 and 4, with 1 and
2 doing X and X damage. We repeated this over 15 times.
There is no consistent pattern, except it being wrong somewhere
time and time again. This clouds the debate on who's better off
as its introduced different problems for both. While I agree there
is glaring inconsistencies in the initial article - some corrected
in the rebuttal, I tend to agree with the original statement "Now
nobody gets a completely realistic experience, High and Low Pingers
alike" However incorrect his assessments of the mechanics were I
cannot disagree with this line if taken to mean realism as in what
really happens on server to the signals, as opposed to any comparison
to real world. Also the client tweaks that are available are barely
effective as far as netcode goes, mainly needed to stabilise the
other bugs that appeared - the most important thing is the fact
that the netcode is a whole bundle of cvars dumped on server operators
with no choice, or knowledge of them and they are the ones that
could have eased its introduction by selectively enabling it rather
than have it forced on them/us on day 1 of 1100 with all the other
People like change, and complain if they don't get it, but not a
lot all at once. So that's my view from the bridge ... while the
original article was inaccurate in areas, I didn't think the rebuttal
was that well based in experience while pointing this out. Only
Valve is in the position to know what's really happening under the
covers, all we can do is observe and make a judgement. Mad Ad
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